Author Topic: Changes to the rules  (Read 4724 times)

Offline Kavzor

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Changes to the rules
« on: 04 08, 2018, 08:40:02 pm »
Good afternoon community members!

Why do we have rules? Ever since my first day of CIT, I have been reflecting on this as well as a player as a staff member, but the answer always seems to be somewhat out of reach. Some might say that rules are meant to put up borders, for how to act within the community, others might say it is meant for the staff to not get bored, some might even say that that they are in fact not rules, but merely guidelines.

I do not claim to have the perfect answer to this question, nor do I believe there is a simple one, but I know for a fact that rules give us a common ground to walk on, they help us to enforce integrity, they make you no better than me. Nevertheless, enforcing these rules take time and people who can bear this responsibility, however, staff differentiate in judgment, they have different moral codes they follow, some staff members are more lenient than others. That the staff members are different consequentially means that it becomes hard for you to feel equally treated when different staff members have different opinions. All this are supposedly resolved by transparency, you do not get punished just for fun. Before you jump into judging all the changes made or comment upon them, I ask of you to consider reflecting upon future and previous punishments you receive or received, to consider that even if different staff may have told you two or more different things they both followed their moral code which led to that punishment, and surely you can learn something out of it as many of us have on multiple occasions.




Now let's talk about the changes!

Basically, all the rules both in-game and on the forum have been reviewed and modified to make them easier to understand, less complicated and hopefully as a result, we will be seeing fewer arguments about whom interpret the rules correctly. The important part to understand is that no content has been removed, only moved. For example, you may currently lack the democratic rule, however, that does not mean it is non-existence, it will be moved into DS1 board which means that it applies under forum rule #2 now.

If you wish to comment on a rule, ask for a clarification or even suggest improvements then mention me within this topic and let me know what it is that you would like to have clarified or changed to make the rule(s) easier to understand.
“Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.”  -- Jack Sparrow

Offline Universe

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #1 on: 04 08, 2018, 09:56:18 pm »
Forum rule #18 -
Show content

Basically, It says that applications to groups cant take personal information from players, A player should not share any private information he doesn't accept to be released., Otherwise it clearly shows that he accepts the information he gave to be released to the whole community, If they still insist on this rule then groups might make a DISCLAIMER? saying that the information he/she wrote in the application will all be released in the whole community and everybody will be able to see it. - If there is any issue with what I just clarified, please give me a PM.
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Offline Kavzor

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #2 on: 04 08, 2018, 10:11:38 pm »
Standardization of rules most likely requires a review as well, the two comments above are both useful for when it comes to that.

@Universe that is one of the issues we attempted to address, as you see by #6 it is now more directed towards being able to receive transparency.
“Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.”  -- Jack Sparrow

Offline RiDz

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #3 on: 05 08, 2018, 07:36:25 am »
Well I have seen Staffs Muting/Warning for protesting against them or just pointing out their faults. Due to the "Strict Rules" They have got the authority to supress each and every voice against them. They warn/mute the protesters even if they are using correct board and an appropriate language.
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Offline Brian

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #4 on: 05 08, 2018, 09:42:40 am »
The protocol should be:

1. Use forum search engine for the keywords of your problem.
2. Ask in support board or support chat ingame.
3. PM staff.

The rule will stay as some players clearly PM staff with utterly useless stuff, and it happened to me as well: https://prnt.sc/kccq16 Clearly this is what should be warned (I just found out I haven't even warned him). Everybody should be free to PM staff BUT you must include all details of your problem, not just a "pls sir help me". However I received various complaints of players getting warned for PMing staff for serious issues. That is why I asked Kavzor to find a solution to the issue that doesn't annoy staff with crap but at the same time doesn't make players afraid to contact staff members for serious matters that aren't "How to take a job?".

Offline Kavzor

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #5 on: 05 08, 2018, 10:02:19 am »
Well I have seen Staffs Muting/Warning for protesting against them or just pointing out their faults. Due to the "Strict Rules" They have got the authority to supress each and every voice against them. They warn/mute the protesters even if they are using correct board and an appropriate language.
This should be taken to the injustice resolutions board.

That is why I asked Kavzor to find a solution to the issue that doesn't annoy staff with crap but at the same time doesn't make players afraid to contact staff members for serious matters that aren't "How to take a job?".

At least now the rule properly includes a reference to injustice resolutions board, hopefully, this will resolve some of the more trivial unwanted PM warnings
Quote
If you do not receive transparency then open an injustice resolution rather than demanding the staff to explain him or herself through forum PMs.
« Last Edit: 05 08, 2018, 10:09:24 am by Kavzor »
“Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.”  -- Jack Sparrow

Offline Brian

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #6 on: 05 08, 2018, 10:29:50 am »
Well I have seen Staffs Muting/Warning for protesting against them or just pointing out their faults. Due to the "Strict Rules" They have got the authority to supress each and every voice against them. They warn/mute the protesters even if they are using correct board and an appropriate language.

Depends on what kind of protest you're doing, are you doing a constructive protest with criticism and solution on how to improve possible human fails or you're just going ahead condemning someone's work without providing insight?

Offline Royal-

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #7 on: 05 08, 2018, 02:28:20 pm »
Forum rule #18 -
Show content

Basically, It says that applications to groups cant take personal information from players, A player should not share any private information he doesn't accept to be released., Otherwise it clearly shows that he accepts the information he gave to be released to the whole community, If they still insist on this rule then groups might make a DISCLAIMER? saying that the information he/she wrote in the application will all be released in the whole community and everybody will be able to see it. - If there is any issue with what I just clarified, please give me a PM.

To be honrest, You don't even need anything to identify someone for an 'advanced' people. It is possible to get the IP address and he can gets your Facebook aswell etc.. But for the normal persons whos aren't 'hacker', I don't think they are interested in someone, or am I wrong? I personally had never problem as I shared my name here.
Also, A Country name wouldn't hurt anyone, I beleive. Oh, by the way, Some people uses their account name with his real name.

Offline Kavzor

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #8 on: 05 08, 2018, 02:38:48 pm »
To be honrest, You don't even need anything to identify someone for an 'advanced' people. It is possible to get the IP address and he can gets your Facebook aswell etc.. But for the normal persons whos aren't 'hacker', I don't think they are interested in someone, or am I wrong? I personally had never problem as I shared my name here.
Also, A Country name wouldn't hurt anyone, I beleive. Oh, by the way, Some people uses their account name with his real name.
The idea is that you can ask for personal information, but you cannot demand it, it is up to the respondent to decide whatever or not to share private information and the risks which may are included. Nevertheless, this does not justify blackmailing, cyberbullying or anything similar, I merely wanted to explain that how much a person wishes to share should be up to the person him or herself.
« Last Edit: 05 08, 2018, 09:18:30 pm by Kavzor »
“Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.”  -- Jack Sparrow

Offline Brand

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #9 on: 05 08, 2018, 02:53:43 pm »
Hello!

I would love to get a clarification for the rule #2 specifically "ungratefulness towards other players work"

1. Is "Players" term plural or for certain members of the community?

2. How exactly how can someone be ungrateful towards your work while they are suggesting something which is in favour of the server and everyone's convenience?

For instances, someone suggests reverting back something that almost  99% of the players want and love it. How would you treat such cases? why would I be ungrateful while I am suggesting something that I am 100% sure it's in favour of the server?
When life hits you, you have the choice to either get up or stay down, it's up to you.
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Offline Kavzor

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #10 on: 05 08, 2018, 09:18:15 pm »
1. Is "Players" term plural or for certain members of the community?
Fixed! Thanks for pointing out the grammatical flaw

2. How exactly how can someone be ungrateful towards your work while they are suggesting something which is in favour of the server and everyone's convenience?

For instances, someone suggests reverting back something that almost  99% of the players want and love it. How would you treat such cases? why would I be ungrateful while I am suggesting something that I am 100% sure it's in favour of the server?
This heavily depends on the context and in which manners it is being said. E.g. One option is to suggest bringing something back something old because I really dislike some certain new features, but, I could also suggest a new feature inspired by an old feature which would suit the modern CIT rather than some vision of what old CIT was or is. Needless to say the later is showing more appreciation towards hard work done to implement new features.

Basically, the rule is asking of you to consider the amount of time a player put into his work regardless of whom he or she is before you make a post which completely neglects their effort.
“Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.”  -- Jack Sparrow

guest79991

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #11 on: 05 08, 2018, 10:37:10 pm »
This heavily depends on the context and in which manners it is being said. E.g. One option is to suggest bringing something back something old because I really dislike some certain new features, but, I could also suggest a new feature inspired by an old feature which would suit the modern CIT rather than some vision of what old CIT was or is. Needless to say the later is showing more appreciation towards hard work done to implement new features.

Basically, the rule is asking of you to consider the amount of time a player put into his work regardless of whom he or she is before you make a post which completely neglects their effort.
Under what law is one required to respect and worship the government or one's work? This rule infringes the right to freedom of speech.

Offline Brand

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #12 on: 05 08, 2018, 11:13:48 pm »
Quote
This heavily depends on the context and in which manners it is being said
Certainly, I would put the server's interest in the first place before thinking about the content. Otherwise, I am truly being ungrateful.

Quote
One option is to suggest bringing something back something old because I really dislike some certain new features
Surely, you would dislike a certain update if it wasn't needed, or for more meaning, they had super fun with that previous update and it has been removed/replaced, how would you really feel? Notice that we lost players because of this matter as well.


However, why should I be ungrateful while I am already suggesting reverting back your work, this work is yours and you are the one who's being ungrateful by denying your work not me, I shouldn't be subjugated to that. This just has to be reviewed slightly.


« Last Edit: 05 08, 2018, 11:27:48 pm by Brand »
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Offline aussieboy32

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #13 on: 07 08, 2018, 05:00:11 am »
The problem never is with how many rules we got, if they are 2 or 2,022 but rather how they are enforced which makes equality among players sound like nothing but a joke.

Nevertheless, enforcing these rules take time and people who can bear this responsibility, however, staff differentiate in judgment, they have different moral codes they follow, some staff members are more lenient than others.

That can never be used as an excuse. Thats practically admitting that admins aren't doing their job(s) as supposed to, and are free to bend/ignore rules at any given moment.

Lets take new in-game rule #3 for example:
3. Do not use cheats

Leaves no room for misinterpretation however we all have witnessed cases where X player managed to get unbanned in days or not banned at all while on the other hand Y stayed banned for months, if not years. Makes me wonder about what Moral Codes you're refering to, but maybe thats just me...


Anyways, what players and admins fail to understand in almost all cases is that rules are here not only to keep things tidy but at the same time to protect players. How? By preventing us to do something stupid enough which will lead to a perma ban. Thats the reason why we have mutes and not only perma mutes for example. Players are suppose to learn from those mutes and not repeat such mistakes, atleast for those in their right mind.

Unfortunately, again we have seen cases were admins and our beloved PAM team have either failed to punish or have lifted punishments giving players the illusion that they are untouchable which obviously led them into repeating such behaviour. Was a matter of time before things would catch up however. So what would had been, perhaps, a few hours mute led to a full perma mute instead. So i'll ask, is it the rules that failed or those responsible in enforcing them?


Note: I got excellent examples that proves the above, thats in case anyone cares to argue with me on this.

Thanks for reading.

« Last Edit: 07 08, 2018, 05:10:06 am by aussieboy32 »

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Offline Kavzor

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Re: Changes to the rules
« Reply #14 on: 08 08, 2018, 10:26:03 am »
I believe that that biggest impact of our differences is how lenient we are to appeal, and that's why we've got 2nd opinions. If you would be kind enough to contact me on discord with these examples you're speaking of then we can work them through together!

I am going to lock this topic, but if anyone sees a flaw in a certain rule or which to simply discuss it, hit me on irc, discord or forum pm and I will gladly discuss it/them, might even try to enforce a change if deemed necessary.
“Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.”  -- Jack Sparrow